tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post8942387937838109154..comments2024-02-11T02:53:13.863-06:00Comments on The Other Side of My Mouth: Save Us from FoolsOther Sidehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06475658453374184885noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-23894473384900075452007-11-30T09:47:00.000-06:002007-11-30T09:47:00.000-06:00You might make an ATTEMPT to defeat her logic...Bu...You might make an ATTEMPT to defeat her logic...<br><br>But that would be a problem, no?Dad29http://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-54690598294677298352007-11-30T10:21:00.000-06:002007-11-30T10:21:00.000-06:00Come on, daddio ... if there were any logic involv...Come on, daddio ... if there were any logic involved. In any case, I think the practice still being "legal" sums it up nicely.Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-38804606892388722192007-11-30T10:34:00.000-06:002007-11-30T10:34:00.000-06:00I *gasp* agree with dad29. You didn't even attemp...I *gasp* agree with dad29. You didn't even attempt to defeat her argument. You just passed on it as if her alleged illogic was obvious. I don't care for Jessica McBride, and I consider myself pro-choice (although I sometimes waiver on that) but I think that it is inconsistent that a mother can terminate a pregnancy but if someone else causes the death of the unborn child they are charged with murder. If you really believe that an unborn child is not a person, you should also believe that murder is not the appropriate charge in the Appleton case she mentiones.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-61741843295190070382007-11-30T10:39:00.000-06:002007-11-30T10:39:00.000-06:00"In any case, I think the practice still being "le..."In any case, I think the practice still being "legal" sums it up nicely."<br><br>Well, no. It doesn't. McBride is talking about policy. The issue is what <i>should</i> be legal. Or how <i>should</i> an attack that leads to the termination of a pregnancy be classified in the criminal code.<br><br>To just note that abortion is legal isn't very helpful in sorting out these issues. It's like the protectionist right-wingers that constantly say "illegal immigrants are breaking the law" as if that says anything when the issue is what the law <i>should be</i>.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-11996211644758222172007-11-30T12:13:00.000-06:002007-11-30T12:13:00.000-06:00OK, how about the notion that a woman gets to cont...OK, how about the notion that a woman gets to control her own body?John Fousthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15842340986220388709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-36664054073531288952007-11-30T12:32:00.000-06:002007-11-30T12:32:00.000-06:00Yes, that is another factor that many people take ...Yes, that is another factor that many people take into account when discussing abortion policy. It is one thing to weigh against McBride's point. However, that does not make McBride's argument illogical, as you suggested it was. It also doesn't do dick to explain the more specific issue McBride was addressing, which is whether or not a fetus is a person.<br><br>For the pro-choice argument to hold up, basically two things need to be true. (1) Women have a right to control their own bodies, and (2) A fetus is something less than a person. McBride was only questioning the second one. Your bringing up the first one doesn't really undermine her point in any way.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-48477576308286904012007-11-30T12:39:00.000-06:002007-11-30T12:39:00.000-06:00This was the question:An Appleton man is correctly...This was the question:<br><br><i>An Appleton man is correctly charged with "first-degree murder of an unborn child."<br><br>So why aren't women who abort their unborn children charged with the same offense?</i><br><br>And the answer is what I have stated ... abortion by concurring women, with the assistance of legally licensed physicians is legal. That is why women are not charged with murder.<br><br>This man from Kaukauna put drugs in this woman's food, drink, what have you with the express purpose of stopping the pregnancy.<br><br>He is not a legally licensed physician nor did she concur. Big difference.<br><br>It was not <i>her</i> choice to have the pregnancy terminated.Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-88801140432770835222007-11-30T12:41:00.000-06:002007-11-30T12:41:00.000-06:00So why was it murder? Why not "destruction of pro...So why was it murder? Why not "destruction of property" or "assault"?JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-83827722899006248512007-11-30T12:46:00.000-06:002007-11-30T12:46:00.000-06:00And it's not like there's a statute (that I know o...And it's not like there's a statute (that I know of) that says "abortion is legal with a doctor and consent" or whatever. There's just a constitutional prohibition against passing laws that say the opposite. There apparently is a statute governing "murder of an unborn child." McBride is asking the question of whether or not this makes sense. For you to say "yeah but that's the law" doesn't really address whether the policies behind the two statutes make sense or are consistent.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-25212181749920373782007-11-30T13:15:00.000-06:002007-11-30T13:15:00.000-06:00This has always been a flaw in pro-choice logic.Ei...This has always been a flaw in pro-choice logic.<br><br>Either it's a human being, protected by the law.<br><br>Or it's nothing but a bunch of skin cells NOT protected by the law.<br><br>He could be charged with assault, or illegally administering a drug, or something else like that.<br><br>But it can't be murder when he does it, but a Constitutional right when she does the exact same thing. At least, not and still have any logical validity.elliothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15820148729023510413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-19027084866504648302007-11-30T13:39:00.000-06:002007-11-30T13:39:00.000-06:00This is an intereting discussion, but it has nothi...This is an intereting discussion, but it has nothing to do with McBride's original question. She asked a question and I answered it. Now onto the philosophical underpinings.<br><br>Patel is being charged with attempted first-degree intentional homicide of an unborn child.<br><br>Patel, <i>without permission of the woman</i>, plyed her with drugs that caused her pregnancy to be aborted. In this case, the woman had made the <i>choice</i> to have the pregnancy go full term.<br><br>She has been denied this <i>choice</i> and the child she hoped to bear.<br><br>I can understand the charges in this case based on the above. However, why <i>attempted</i> homocide? Wasn't Patel successful?Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-70625803079064545262007-11-30T14:11:00.000-06:002007-11-30T14:11:00.000-06:00"This is an intereting discussion, but it has noth..."This is an intereting discussion, but it has nothing to do with McBride's original question. She asked a question and I answered it."<br><br>Well, technically you answered it. But your answer really sucked:<br><br>Q: "Why is abortion legal?" <br><br>A: Because abortion is legal. <br><br>"Patel, without permission of the woman, plyed her with drugs that caused her pregnancy to be aborted. In this case, the woman had made the choice to have the pregnancy go full term."<br><br>But he was charged with a crime against the fetus, not a crime against the mother. Consent isn't really relevant if you believe that a fetus is a person. <br><br>"why attempted homocide?"<br><br>GOod question. The fact that you asked it also shows that you regard the crime charged as one against the fetus and not against the mother.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-119556109605425662007-11-30T14:24:00.000-06:002007-11-30T14:24:00.000-06:00"Consent isn't really relevant if you believe that..."Consent isn't really relevant if you believe that a fetus is a person."<br><br>That should be, THE MOTHER'S consent isn't really relevant if you believe the a fetus is a person.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-25221176507267250732007-11-30T14:32:00.000-06:002007-11-30T14:32:00.000-06:00Well, technically you answered it. But your answer...<i>Well, technically you answered it. But your answer really sucked:<br><br>Q: "Why is abortion legal?" <br><br>A: Because abortion is legal.</i><br><br>No, she asked why the man was being charged with attempted homicide, but women who have abortions are not.<br><br>I have answered that question a number of times ... none were as simple as what you quoted.<br><br>I do regard it as a crime against both the woman and the fetus. Her choice to continue the pregnancy lent viability to her fetus. She believed the fetus was a person. This man denied her this choice and this fetus. The charge should have been charged with homocide.<br><br>But don't get this confused with legal abortion. The woman has the choice ... period.Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-67851619954827192202007-11-30T14:36:00.000-06:002007-11-30T14:36:00.000-06:00That last one was awkwardly written, but that will...That last one was awkwardly written, but that will happen when holding a baby (for which the choice was happily made).Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-77207659091488865462007-11-30T14:48:00.000-06:002007-11-30T14:48:00.000-06:00Whoah there..."She believed the fetus was a person...Whoah there...<br><br>"She believed the fetus was a person."<br><br>So, that solves the age old question of when a fetus becomes a person? When the mother decides it to be?<br><br>That was a lot easier than I thought!David Casperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02977113224125751896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-22096778470228436992007-11-30T15:20:00.000-06:002007-11-30T15:20:00.000-06:00Look what you did Other Side. here I am defending...Look what you did Other Side. here I am defending Jessica McBride and agreeing with Dad29 and Casper. Did you really have to try to make such a confused (dare I say dishonest?) point?<br><br>"No, she asked why the man was being charged with attempted homicide, but women who have abortions are not."<br><br>Which is just a simplified way of saying, "why has society/government/courts determined that a fetus is a person when a third party kills it but not a person when the mother kills it? Or put another way, "why is it legal for a mother to kill her fetus when it's not legal for other people to kill her fetus?" Your answer basically was that it's legal because it's legal. <br><br>"I do regard it as a crime against both the woman and the fetus."<br><br>Well, it would be pretty hard to commit a crime against an unborn fetus without also commiting a crime against the mother. But they're different crimes and we're not talking about the latter crime.<br><br>"Her choice to continue the pregnancy lent viability to her fetus. She believed the fetus was a person. This man denied her this choice and this fetus. The charge should have been charged with homocide."<br><br>The vast majority of people in the world don't believe the question of whether a fetus is a person is a subjective question. And for once, I agree with the vast majority of people. Regardless of how you feel about abortion rights, do you really think the mother gets to decide when her fetus is a person? <br><br>"But don't get this confused with legal abortion. The woman has the choice ... period."<br><br>Ahh, the old trick of ending your sentence by spelling out p-e-r-i-o-d. No surer sign of a bad argument. Phil Collins is the greatest President in the History of Canada... Period. The woman has the choice ... period. Except except except when the fetus reaches the point where <i>everyone</i> agrees it's a human being. So here's the breakdown:<br><br>Religious right says fetus is person... period.<br><br>Criminal code says fetus is person when it is killed by third party.<br><br>Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court [basically] says fetus is not person.<br><br>Typical leftist says fetus is not a person.<br><br>Other side says fetus is a person when mother decides it's a person.<br><br>Jesusisjustalrightwithme says fetus is person when it has a brain and/or can servive outside the womb. (I'm torn between these two points in time. I'm working on it.)<br><br>EVERYONE agrees that Fetus is person when fetus is born.JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-20882104441087053882007-11-30T16:07:00.000-06:002007-11-30T16:07:00.000-06:00I should never try to get involved in questions li...I should never try to get involved in questions like this when I am taking care of the baby.<br><br>The woman's right to choose is absolute. You can debate this however you want, but this is, IMO, a done deal.<br><br>I cannot control how a DA decides to act. Done deal.<br><br>I answered McBride's question. Done deal.<br><br>Perhaps another time when I am not distracted, because, I will admit my answers have been all over the place. However, I do resent the "dishonest" tag being applied to me (even hypothetically).<br><br>I'm honest enought to provide this forum, let you discuss this, and take your thoughts seriously. Unlike some of the righty sites where the name-calling would have begun almost instantly.<br><br>Damn it, she's in the pots and pans.<br><br>I gotta go.Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-32482781056466927442007-11-30T22:53:00.000-06:002007-11-30T22:53:00.000-06:00I think the problem lies in the fact that as each ...I think the problem lies in the fact that as each major side (pro-choice and pro-life) has had control of the government, the definition has been so convoluted that many of the laws are contradictory to each other.<br><br>I think that the DA probably overcharged the defendant in order to set up a plea deal on a lesser charge. <br><br>In regards to the larger question. The fetus is part of the mother, biologically, until the time of birth. JIJAWM is probably closest with the viability of the fetus stance. But the biggest thing is that the if one considers it part of the mother, she should have the control of her own body. What the defendent in this case did, IMO, is assault a part of her body. If the fetus was viable at the time of the miscarriage, a murder charge might be appropriate, but difficult to prove in an objective manner.<br><br>On a personal note, I believe abortion to be wrong, with the exception of rape or health of the mother being in jeopardy, but I also don't believe that my beliefs should be foisted on others.capperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08751967312821403092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-26424301133078208502007-12-01T07:55:00.000-06:002007-12-01T07:55:00.000-06:00I should have left this discussion for a different...I should have left this discussion for a different time becayse I was too distracted, and ultimately made some conflicting statement.<br><br>Oh well.<br><br>However, capper, I'm with you. I don't like abortion ... I mean, really, who does? However, I am a firm beliver that it's the woman's right to choose how to proceed with any pregnancy.<br><br>That's a good point about the DA. Plus it was guaranteed to get some media attention. That's always helpful for career moves.Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-58055114735023171732007-12-01T10:47:00.000-06:002007-12-01T10:47:00.000-06:00And the answer is what I have stated ... abortion ...<i>And the answer is what I have stated ... abortion by concurring women, with the assistance of legally licensed physicians is legal. That is why women are not charged with murder.</i><br><br>Late returning here because I had to be revived after reading JIJ's concurrence with my remark. Still taking smelling salts.<br><br>You did NOT answer her question, which WAS philosophical. Instead, you responded with the facile (and philosophically inconsistent) "because the law SAYS so." This from an individual who hates "...X said so"???<br><br>Please.<br><br>Then you slide further into a pit:<br><i>Her choice to continue the pregnancy lent viability to her fetus. She believed the fetus was a person</i><br><br>So if I don't believe that YOU are a person, then executing you is...what? No harm, no foul?<br><br>And, adding no credibility, you then state: <i>The woman's right to choose is absolute. You can debate this however you want, but this is, IMO, a done deal</i><br><br>Dred Scott was "a done deal." But what's right and what's "done" ain't always the same.<br><br>Capper jumps in with a nuanced position, and says: <i>The fetus is part of the mother, biologically, until the time of birth</i>. Unfortunately, that's inaccurate, as either the fetus IS or IS NOT a person. Capper's argument really means that "birth" is personhood (but since babies can be "born" at 5 months gestation and do just fine, there's this..."when" problem.)<br><br>Another way to put it is that Capper's is an argument from dependency. That effectively means that a 1-year-old, who remains utterly dependent on Mom and Dad (or SOME adult) is "not a person."<br><br>You know, like the one in the pots and pans...Dad29http://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-10828047398587472032007-12-01T11:16:00.000-06:002007-12-01T11:16:00.000-06:00I see where you are coming from dad and JIJ, if we...I see where you are coming from dad and JIJ, if we are assuming that what the man did was an abortion. But is it an abortion when it is performed without the woman's consent?<br><br>And dad, you keep smelling salts around the house? Do you need them often? :)Other Sidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-84104435431069102492007-12-01T11:35:00.000-06:002007-12-01T11:35:00.000-06:00"I see where you are coming from dad and JIJ, if w..."I see where you are coming from dad and JIJ, if we are assuming that what the man did was an abortion. But is it an abortion when it is performed without the woman's consent?"<br><br>Huh? I don't think you do see what we are saying. The issues is <i>why</i> we call it an "abortion" in one instance and a "murder" in another, based on who's doing the "killing." You keep talking about consent, but if the fetus is regarded as a person, the mother's consent shouldn't matter, should it? I mean a mother can't kill a newborn <i>because</i> the newborn is undoubtedly a person. That's the same reason a third party can't kill a newborn. <br><br>So, if one section of the law regards a fetus as a person, and for that reason it considers killing the fetus to be murder if committed by a third party, why does the mother's "consent" even enter the picture if the law says the fetus is a person?JesusIsJustAlrightWithMehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07943373959282558773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-19459391503014837422007-12-01T12:04:00.000-06:002007-12-01T12:04:00.000-06:00Dad-I don't know which is more egregious. That yo...Dad-<br><br>I don't know which is more egregious. That you take my words out of context or that you distort them to fit your opinion. <br><br>I did not state anything about dependence. I did mention viability which you either missed or ignored. <br><br>And in a biological sense, I still feel I am correct. Especially during the first few weeks, the fetus in not developed into anything but a cluster of unassigned cells and would not survive out of the host body. I recognize and acknowledge the pro-life position that life begins at conception, but that is their opinion, just as what I stated is my opinion. It does not mean that it is right, and it does not mean it is wrong. It just is.<br><br>JIJAWM-As I pointed out, the law has become complex and contradictory with itself, much like the Bible. The same question could be asked in reverse. "If one section of the law doesn't regard the fetus as a person, why would it be considered murder if the abortion is done by a third party, regardless of the wishes of the mother?"<br><br>It comes down to who's rights are greater, the fetus or the mother, and in which stages of pregnancy do these rights change, if at all. If a woman is raped, or has her health and life threatened by a continuance of the pregnancy, does she have to forfeit her rights to that of a fetus?capperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08751967312821403092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5417114695005885320.post-20363017436298607262007-12-01T12:31:00.000-06:002007-12-01T12:31:00.000-06:00We don't ... the DA did. And, I was only asking a...We don't ... the DA did. And, I was only asking a question ... is it an abortion when it is performed without the woman's consent?Other Sidenoreply@blogger.com